The Bootstrapped Founder

Arvid Kahl 0:00
Today, we will dive into the world of building a personal platform with entrepreneur, Kasey Jones. We tackle the fears and challenges that come with putting yourself out there. As Kasey opens up about her transformative journey of sharing personal stories and the self discovery that followed. We discussed overcoming the fear of public judgement, the importance of vulnerability, and how these elements are crucial in defeating impostor syndrome and fostering personal growth. This conversation is not just informative, but also deeply relatable. If you're building something meaningful in front of others, you will find many of your own challenges in Kasey's story. And you will also hear a few tactics and strategies to deal with exactly those challenges that you might not even be aware of yet. This episode is sponsored by acquire.com. More on that later. Now, here is Kasey.

Kasey, welcome to the show. You've recently said something on Twitter that I found both very, very funny and equally insightful. A lot of the Twitter brand girls you mentioned are these like boastful, 20 somethings without any real experience. And you explain why that is really well. They don't have to struggle with the burden of experience and complexity and embarrassment like other people do who've had some experience in their life. They're free to brag about their accomplishments, while us older entrepreneurs, let's just say that, mark by

Kasey Jones 1:21
I'd say more seasoned, that's the phrase I use.

Arvid Kahl 1:26
That's it. That's what it is, right? Mark by decades of behind the scenes knowledge and these complex social lives that we have. We hesitate to put ourselves out there. So let's help those people, not the ones, the gurus, they don't need help. They're already confident. But let's make a case for building this personal platform. Where do we start?

Kasey Jones 1:42
So, okay, first, I love that you appreciated that post. When I posted that, I am sarcastic in real life. I am not sarcastic online. Like I'm very nice. I'm very nice. I'm very positive online. And when I posted that, I genuinely thought I was a little bit worried that the young folks would be insulted. And if you actually look in the comments, there's a bunch of the young personal brand gurus. They're like, oh my God, I never realized it was like this. This is great. Like, they totally appreciated it. And I was like, oh, like I didn't make anyone mad at me. It was actually on both sides. They were like, oh, my God, I didn't realize this. You're exactly right. And I think the biggest thing that comes into play for more seasoned entrepreneurs or more seasoned people, professionals who want to start building their personal platform, is the fact that like, there's just a lot more at stake. And one, most of the time, they've reached this point in their career by just focusing on getting work done, about doing things in person, about kind of being behind the scenes. They aren't used to stepping out sort of on a more public scale. They might be able to. And I have clients that this is the case where they are killers at like leading a boardroom or commanding like a designated conversation. But this idea of shouting into the void is completely terrifying. And I think it's also you really think about it. It's been a long time since they've been beginners at something. And it's an even longer time, maybe never, that they were beginners in a very public way. So what winds up happening and I have this conversation all the time, is they are petrified of saying the wrong thing. And what's very interesting is in the work that I do and the feedback that I get from clients, prospective clients, students from my cohort, all of this, they tend to be much more afraid about public ridicule. And especially women are terrified of trolls and bullies and being canceled. And this is I mean, some of these people, they only do content on LinkedIn. It's really frickin hard to get trolled or canceled on LinkedIn. I don't even know that that's ever happened. And what are they going to be talking about? Like most of the time, they're like talking about strategic human resources, you know.And you're like, how are you going to get canceled? But they have this perception that the tides can that it's super unpredictable, that there is this like audience just waiting to pounce. And that might be a little bit more true on like Twitter or X. But like, it's probably like the vast majority of the things they are most likely to talk about. I always have to explain to them. The most likely reaction if you say that quote wrong thing or you don't do it right, is that you just get crickets and literally no one sees it or engages with it or responds at all. It's like them finding it and like going mad, and you know, with the pitchforks and the torches, like it's pretty unlikely.

Arvid Kahl 5:22
Yeah, people have gotten so good at shitposting that even your attempt at it might not work, right? People have a high expectation of trolling at this point, very, very interesting. And I guess LinkedIn just as a network, you're right. It's a different network than the public super hyper public space that Twitter is, even though you never know, right? That's the fear, I guess, in people that it just needs to be one person with a sizable audience to pick you as their target for the day. And the funny thing is, I've always thought so too, but it has never really happened. You know, even when people try to stir up something, it's kind of my responsibility not to engage with it. And once I don't engage, you know, they go to somebody who does. So, what I hear you saying is that people effectively have the fear of public ridicule and that keeps them from even getting started.

Kasey Jones 6:15
Well, what I keep thinking about is, you know how it's like the number one fear that people have is public speaking. And I hadn't really made the connection to that until recently because I've been really diving into this fear and lack of self confidence and impostor syndrome and all these other things as it relates to social media and building a personal platform. But it makes sense. And by the way, a lot of the people that I've talked to, they are not afraid of public speaking at all because I think they've gotten used to it. They're comfortable there. But I think there's a very similar thing in that it feels like an environment where you don't have any control and where something can happen that can be devastating to you. And I think there's also this element, this belief that, I don't know, people are out to get you, that they're looking for that. And I might be kind of naive. I think that something that has been an advantage for me in all of this is I am more likely to think positively and optimistically about people and PS, that's totally gotten me in trouble. I can't even tell you how many times I've like trusted so many people I shouldn't trust. I've gotten better about that. But I think there is something that there are some people that through life experience, through you know, kind of training, societal conditioning, a million other things, the lack of control feels dangerous.

Arvid Kahl 8:04
That would make sense for people who did not grow up with social media, right? That's why I said older, I mean, more seasoned obviously has multiple meanings. But like really just the digital natives, they have a different way of communicating. They're fully aware of their lack of control. They're also fully aware of the methods and dynamics that they can lean into to kind of wrestle back control should they need to, I guess, for people who grew up in the world and I'm always thinking about the executive that comes to you. Like a 50 year old person that wants to build something in the digital world, but does not have this kind of experience from their own you know life growing up, their reputation building engine was the boardroom or you know, the career through the company, which was hilariously private and extremely hierarchical. And now you live in a world that is hilariously public. And with flat hierarchies all over the place like everybody from the biggest CEO to the lowliest, whatever that might be, can see anything you do just the same. Of course, that's kind of scary. How can we start dealing with this fear that the way we build reputation in public is kind of something that we don't have full control over? Do we just give up the sentiment that control is a thing?

Kasey Jones 9:27
So what I also think is very interesting, it's like a weird intersection here. The other thing that people do and I see this all the time, is they throw, because of personal platform, personal brand, whatever they throw out, like literally everything they know about, like business and strategy and all these other things. I talk to people all the time who are trying to grow online and you ask a few questions. Okay, who's your ideal audience? Like, who do you really want to be reading your content? They have no clue. It's like the most generic idea. Oh, anyone? I can help anyone. Okay. Or, okay, what are this very specific things that you want to be known for or problems you want to help people solve or things you want to talk about? I'm not exaggerating. I have a new client, very, very impressive human, startup founder. He literally did a post about the weather the other day and I was like, dude, what are you doing? And like, no one cares about your thoughts about rain. Like, what is this? You know, and so what winds up happening is they take this personal stuff like a little too far. And so what's interesting is everything else in their career, they would never just winging something. They would have a plan, they would know what they were doing, they would have goals. And so they don't have that. And it's not surprising that they struggle to see results. And it is scarier because it's so much more like, I don't know, abstract and nebulous and it's like more intimidating. And so I think the best thing that they can do is narrow the scope, have a have a plan, like being like, hey, I'm going to talk about these few things that I really know about and I've built my career on and that I enjoy talking about and I'm going to focus on helping this kind of person who I feel called to help and to work with and, you know, whatever it is, but it's narrow. It's get more focused and have an actual plan, like, lean into your experience as a business professional. It's shocking to me that this is such a common problem. But I see it all the time.

Arvid Kahl 12:10
I'm not surprised by this. I think the particularly for people who did not grow up with it. Again, I don't want to write this too hard. But it feels like there is a misconception on how we use social media as the platforms that we're on. Because if the platform that you're on like Twitter and I mean, like somebody else's stuff from obviously at this point, right? If you're on Twitter and you're so used to your uncle and your nephew, sharing pictures of their vacation or the hobbies that they have, then or Facebook for that matter, right? Where people just have baby pictures and all that kind of stuff on, using those

Kasey Jones 12:41
Like, it's that kind of thing. You're like, no, no, no, that's not what we're doing here.

Arvid Kahl 12:45
And it's kind of hard to distinguish because it's the same platform or the same kind of platform. I think that the nuance here is to say, I could be posting about the weather, which is probably interesting if you're meteorologist, you know.

Kasey Jones 12:59
But it wasn't like a scientific take on the weather. It was like, it's interesting when it rains like it was, you know.

Arvid Kahl 13:08
Well, that's the thing. I sometimes catch myself thinking about stuff like this as well and then starting to type but then I think, why are people following me in the first place? Right? Is it because they're interested in what I have to say about everything? Or is it because they're interested because I have some experience in a couple of particular fields. And the thing is, I've posted about weather before, about storms or about I think, like I was talking about airline pilots and how they react to weather situations. But that was in the context of how entrepreneurs deal with catastrophe, right? I recontextualized it to something meaningful.

Kasey Jones 13:42
It's always about the connection. And like, I talk about, you know, by some people's kind of standards, I overshare. I totally do. I talk about very personal things. But I always try to connect it to the work that I do and what I'm really about and there's always sort of like a lesson to be learned. It's not the, you know, the only one is like, my husband and I eloped a couple months ago. I definitely had a post about getting married with a great friggin picture. That has no lesson to be learned. It's me just being like, look, I got married. I have a fabulous dress on like, you know, and there's time for those things. But like, the point is, you're not going to build a true like platform, a true kind of brand that people know, like know as you and associate with you and you don't build authority by using social media as like your own personal journal. It is not like Live Journal from what is that the late 90?

Arvid Kahl 14:49
Go to life journal, right? Go to life journal, if you want to.

Kasey Jones 14:52
Yeah, Tumblr. You can totally still do that if that's what you want to do. But like that's not what is going to help you like really build authority and have the kind of sort of impact that most of these people are really seeking.

Arvid Kahl 15:05
Yeah, it's all about intentionality, right? Intentionally choosing the platform, choosing the mode you use it, the voice that you develop, like, I guess that's kind of where it starts. And that's where you started who is this for? And maybe that is a big problem for somebody who is an expert in a particular field has been an expert for decades could talk to anybody, right? Lik could talk to the people who are just starting, the people who are advanced, just like they are maybe even more advanced than they are, the people in adjacent industries, there are so many people or groups of people you could talk to. How do I find the group of people that I should be talking to?

Kasey Jones 15:43
This is the other challenge that I think for some people, it does take a little bit of experimentation. But okay, so what I find particularly fascinating about this whole effort, right? Of creating content online, I actually think that this work is for me personally, but I know this is true for a lot of people and I bet you have had the same experience. It's deeply transformative. Like, it changes you as a person in the most genuinely like beautiful, powerful way that you can't possibly understand until you're in the middle of it and you start to see it for yourself. You know, I teach people this stuff. I'm never going to sell a course being like, I'm going to transform you like, at the core of who you are because PS, they will be like, bullshit and they will not buy into that. But it is really, really true. And part of that is because over time you really discover who do you feel called to serve? Like, who would you feel truly motivated to help? And what are the problems you can help them solve? Like, what are the ways that you can help them solve those problems? And it leads to, it is such a journey of like, personal discovery and meaning in a way that's hard to explain, but is legit true. And so I do think it is, my new motto these days, honestly, I feel like people are just gonna start rolling their eyes every time I say it because I say it all the time. It's a journey, not a destination, like it is. It's a journey. And so my recommendation is you pick one and you start. And you say, you know what? And PS you and I've talked about this, the easiest one to start with is younger you, you a couple of years ago. What would like you three to five years ago, what would that younger you like, just kill to know and to find out and start creating content there? And over time, you'll start to be like, oh, God, it feels really good when I write about this stuff or in this way or in this angle or you post something that you think is like, oh, this isn't really that good. I didn't even really think about this and everyone else freaking loves it. You're like, oh, my God, there's something here. It's all about the discovery.

Arvid Kahl 18:18
Yeah, and allowing others to give feedback, right? That's also an important part. Like if you never share, you'll never know what works, right? That's also an important like, step along the way is to open yourself up and actually publish. I was just thinking, as you explained this, about transformative moments. I think the first time I got like an avalanche of responses to an article, a blog article I wrote that I thought was just like, no, that's all right. But people really resonated with it. It was on mental health, which is always an issue that I think the internal perspective looks a bit different than the external one because of the mental health issues that we try to solve by even talking about them. The resonance I got on this, like unprompted resonance. People just wrote me emails because they liked what I wrote about and that was like, okay, this is where I'm needed, right? This is what works, what people are really, really interested in.

Kasey Jones 19:11
Oh, yeah!

Arvid Kahl 19:08
It's hard to make that moment happen, like artificially but once it happens because you've tried it, like that feeling is

Kasey Jones 19:18
It's funny. This was probably this was years before I actually started really posting on social media, but I had a personal experience that was like, very upsetting. I have a genetic neurological disease, was born with it. It's degenerative, it sucks but it's not terrible. And I don't have a terrible version of it but I had a doctor's appointment that was like, very upsetting. And I won't get into all the details. It doesn't really matter. But I was really upset about this experience. And I wrote a post on Medium, honestly, because I just needed to like get it out of myself. Like I just needed to get it out there like I needed to work through it in my own brain like I didn't I really wasn't thinking about. It wasn't for anyone but me. And I wrote it. This was in, like early 2016. And I wrote it and I posted it on Facebook, that's how long ago it was. And I got this flood of messages of people being like, oh my God, I'm going through something really similar. This was super helpful, like and that was the primary response. And I mean, I got, like dozens of messages from people that I knew that I didn't. And I knew pretty well, but I didn't know that they had this. And it was the first thing where I was like, whoa, I can talk about my own experience in a way that is kind of healing for me and people say it helps them. And it completely changed everything. Also, sidenote, it kind of led to my divorce because my ex husband got really mad that I didn't have anything in there about what a great supportive husband he was. Right? And I remember and he was like, he was like, all my friends sent me a message that the post made me look bad. And I was like, no, they didn't. I know your friends. They wouldn't say that to you. And it was like, it was kind of like got a divorce like six months later. But it was the starting point to me being like, whoa, I can share things that I'm going through in a way that helps other people. And I think that's been the driving force for me throughout is there's so much of social media where all you see is the highlight reel is the good stuff. And it makes us all feel alone. And like failures and and there's a way to do things differently that creates a sense of meaning and connection.

Arvid Kahl 22:00
Yeah, and people crave that stuff, right? They see the highlight reel and that's what they used to. That's what everybody projects at all times. And they start comparing themselves to that. But I would rather have somebody that I admire post something that is kind of in my wheelhouse instead of being the one that it's like 10x, 50x, whatever I do, right? Like it's nice to have aspirational stuff out there. But if everything is aspirational, it shifts the baseline and you don't want baselines to be shifted, at least I don't think for a community of people that are like, hopefully supportive peers.

Kasey Jones 22:29
Yeah

Arvid Kahl 22:29
Those baselines should be shifted. They should be where they are.

Kasey Jones 22:31
It doesn't show us how to get through thing. Like that's my biggest challenge is you will see posts from people that gloss over the struggle that they had. We've seen all the posts where it's like, I was 18 and fat and broke. Now, I'm a millionaire. And you're like, okay, like there's one guy who's he's so sweet. He's such a nice boy. But he writes on a regular basis. He'll be like, eight years ago, I had $150 to my name and you're like, sweetie, you were 15 eight years ago, like I hope you had 150 dollars to your name. Like

Arvid Kahl 23:10
Ah funny, but that's just imitation, right? That's like imitating the highlight reels of people that actually have accomplished stuff. Again, we're talking about people that are unencumbered by experience just imitating other people's successful behaviors, which is, well, let's call it toxic on some level, at least, right? Because it's glossing over the necessary understanding and the details that make the journey happen. Again, journey not just destination. And those things are the checkmarks on the destination not journey plots that you should be going from. Okay. That's very interesting. Well, the thing is, like most of the times, I feel like a lot like sharing the negative stuff as well. But often when and this is maybe something that you can help me with. Even though I know that I tried to keep a balance between the good stuff and the bad stuff, it always hurts a little bit to share the negative things, the things that didn't work, the experiments that didn't go anywhere, even though I know cognitively that it's a good idea to talk about things that didn't go anywhere maybe helping other people in the process to not make the same mistakes. It feels like it's a sting at my ego. Right? That's something in it. So have you found ways of surfacing the fact that the ego is just one of the many things that is part of you, how can I deal with feeling this thing and still going through with it?

Kasey Jones 24:35
So I think what I wind up doing is I wind up thinking about the lesson. So when I think about it's interesting so I'm a coach. I do kind of growth strategy coaching for like CEOs and smaller business owners. And there are lots of people that can do what I do and probably do it better than I do it in terms of like helping deliver revenue increasing strategies and tactics and all the rest of it. What makes me different in how I work with clients is I have made like, literally every single mistake a person could possibly make in life. I mean, we already talked about my ex husband like Jesus. I have just, I mean, I really like I was totally a late bloomer in terms of figuring out what the hell I wanted to do. I was super lost for a long time. I was a mess for a long time. And I have managed throughout my life to work really, really, really hard at going through these hard experiences and these mistakes to be able to learn the lessons there and to come out the other side better off because of it. And so I don't create content where I'm just like, let me tell you talk about my failure, like, cuz that's kind of depressing. I'm like, I will always focus on okay, here's the really awful experience I went through. Here's how terrible I felt during it. Here's all the stupid shit that I did, like, whatever. But I will always get to the okay, here's what I've learned from this. And here's why this has made me a better person or a smarter entrepreneur or more successful in other places. I will always focus on the lesson because just focusing on the failure, dude, that is depressing. And that is a knock to the ego. But being able to say, here's a bad thing that happened or a failure that I created. And here's how I turned it into something that made me better because of it. That is gritty as hell. It's inspiring. It is educational. And while still being super human. And so like I think that would be my call to you is recognize that it's interesting. If you talk to people, they'll always be like, very scared about being vulnerable. But then you ask them to look at like a post for someone else's vulnerable. And you ask them like their reaction, 90% of the time, they'll be like, oh, so brave, so courageous, so strong. And so it's like, yeah, it is scary. But it is also it will help other people. It is weirdly healing to be like, yeah, I'm putting it out there. And that's okay. And you can remind yourself that like, dude, I took an awful situation. And I turned it into something good. And that's remarkably strong.

Arvid Kahl 28:18
Yeah, thank you for this. I think that it resonates with me on a level where I've had this experience many times in the past and it's about recalling the joy you felt from other people commiserating and motivating and supporting you in that moment and making the loss, whatever perceived loss there may be, a win in terms of like gains that are beyond what the actual experiment was about. Right? That's the idea. I think for me, it starts with recognizing that it is actually a failure in the first place. And not just a win waiting to happen, you know, that is also like a lot of self delusion. And founders who are kind of optimism machines or creators for that matter, that just trust that there is something out there, right? There is a pot of gold at the end of that content rainbow somewhere out there. And you just keep chasing it. And one day you'll get there for many small things that are obvious failures. I remember launching an NFTcollection in the past. That was a failure from the moment it was conceived. But I thought it was kind of cool. To recognize that I was a failure, it took me a couple days. And when I did, I posted about it and everybody was like, yeah, that was stupid. But this was really helpful because now we understand why this doesn't work, why that was a good idea and so on. Right? Recognizing failure, that's the hard part.

Kasey Jones 29:38
I was kind of I was giggling while you were saying that because it makes me think, frankly, of what something my therapist says because he'll be like, yeah, no, like, part of my challenge honestly. And like my sort of personal healing journey is I thought that resilience was having a terrible situation is finding the silver lining and like moving on. And he really taught me that it's like no girl, like you haven't dealt with it. You haven't processed it. It's still like stored in your body this like this traumatic experience or this, you know, bad experience. And so a lot of what he's taught me, it's also like, you have to give yourself time to grieve. And so sometimes I would say that, if you are really struggling, you feel like you should be able to talk about something and you aren't yet. I would say it's because you haven't given yourself time to grieve what you've lost because of that. And that's the way you get to a point where you can truly let that pain go. And it doesn't affect you in that way, is by as my therapist would say, you fall in love with the grief because it's what your heart, your mind, your body, your soul needs in order to be able to let it go.

Arvid Kahl 31:01
That's really helpful. And the funny part is, this works for grief on every level, right? If you lose someone, if you lose something, if you lose like your passion, if you lose connection, if you lose a friend, like whatever it might be, leaning into the grief. And I never remember that funny enough from the thing where you would expect probably very little grief, which was selling a business. Like there was grief for owning the thing that created so much joy and success and passion.

Kasey Jones 31:29
Yeah

Arvid Kahl 31:29
That's exactly right. And it still is in its absence. It still is, right? It took me a while to deal with this. And I remember having even very strong physical sensations like that the body keeps the score. That's kind of what you're alluding at here. And it certainly did for me like it took me years for that to go away. And in talking about it, in writing about it, I actually dealt with it, which is probably the least efficient way of therapy, but it is like self led therapy, I guess. But that's kind of

Kasey Jones 31:59
I think that's part of it. Like, you know, I talk about this. So like I've talked about some very personal like very traumatic things online. So it's like, probably the only thread of mine that has like really gone viral on Twitter is about like three and a half years ago. I was attacked by my dog, like even really, really badly. 100% that I was gonna die like I had four days in the hospital, major surgery, like all kinds of things. And what was really interesting about all of that is that a core part of me sort of healing from that was talking about it. And being open to talking about it often and with a variety of people and sometimes kind of publicly and like, because every time I did, it deepened my understanding of what I was going through and what it was teaching me and what I still had to kind of like, learn and heal from. And so there is something in this part of kind of what we were just talking about this work can be truly transformative is it sometimes allows you if you approach it in a very sort of honest and sometimes raw way, it can deepen your understanding of yourself as a person and allow you to kind of heal from some of the things that you've gone through. And let's be real even therapy, dude, it is again, a journey not a destination. Like it is a long frickin process. So I don't know that my way was sped up, like at all. It's just part of it.

Arvid Kahl 33:43
Yeah, it feels like the opening up just even to yourself about these things, that's the hard part, which is why I was like jokingly said like self paced therapy, which obviously is not therapy, right? Like I was wondering, should you start getting the therapy first. And then you start building a personal platform? Like these things seem to go hand in hand because like, I think that's one of the biggest fears is to open up a part of yourself both to yourself and to your audience, to the people who are listening, that is making you more vulnerable than you want to be. And I think that is a fear that everybody constantly lives on who's in these kind of performative networks like Twitter. Right? So where's the line? That's probably hard to find. Right?

Kasey Jones 34:26
I think it is hard to find. And I think that line is also evolving. It changes. Right? So where my line was three years ago and where my line is now is very, very different. And so it evolves over time. But I think you said something that I think was very interesting of like, you know, pushing yourself to be more vulnerable than you want to be. And I think what's very interesting in the conversations that I have, the work that I do, the people I wind up working with, it's actually the people want to be more vulnerable than they are comfortable being. If you don't, I mean, being drawn to this work at all, on some level, it means you want to put yourself out there. And that means that if you are then afraid to do that or you're like, oh, I can't be that vulnerable. It's not a oh, I don't want to or I don't want to be. It's I'm afraid to be. And I think the more that I think about this and this is something that has been coming up kind of in my work and a lot of my conversations, is people feel that fear. And instead of focusing on how do they work through the fear, they focus on the external things, like being a better tweet writer and you're like, okay, that's not really, that's not going to do it. And there has to be what's interesting and I know you know this from entrepreneurship, like the people that really succeed in the long run, they have they believe in themselves. Right? Even if you look at like, you know, famous athletes. Kobe Bryant was telling people that he would be better than Michael Jordan when he was like seven. Like, he just had that self belief. And I'm not saying we need to have that level of self belief. But we have to and some level, say to ourselves, like, I can do this. And I can push through it. And before you hit record, you and I were talking a little bit about like fear and impostor syndrome. And what's really interesting and I talk about this a lot. I remember when I had this like aha moment, where I realized that every time I felt impostor syndrome, it was in the process of me like seriously leveling up. And I can still remember the aha moment. I literally was on a plane to Beirut, Lebanon to lead a series of go to market strategy workshops for the first ever, like pilot class of it's a partnership between the UN and a startup accelerator. And I was like, what am I doing? I have no idea what to teach these people. I'm a total fraud. They're gonna laugh at me. Like, I was super, super intimidated. And I came home being like, oh, my God, this was the most rewarding thing I've ever done. They thought it was super valuable. I literally started my business like two weeks later. And it was and now I've learned, if I am feeling that fear, it means I'm on the right track. It means I'm doing something that matters to me. It means like, I need to do everything I can to push through it. Because PS, it doesn't ever go away, doesn't ever go away. And so it's more about having the result, having the self belief that like, no, I can do this. And I can get through it. Rather than thinking, I don't know. I'll have a smart enough strategy where all of a sudden the fear goes away. It doesn't.

Arvid Kahl 38:18
Yeah, it has to be an intrinsic willingness to overcome this. And I think that the hard part is, like our brains, at least, you know, the animal reptile parts are wired to avoid this at all costs, right? Any kind of growth could be dangerous. So we better stay where we are.

Kasey Jones 38:33
Unfamiliar is danger to your brain.

Arvid Kahl 38:36
Yeah

Kasey Jones 38:37
So we do anything new, which is PS, all of growth, right? It's our brain is like, do not do this. This is terrifying. This is bad. And so it's, I don't know, maybe it's stupid that we push through.

Arvid Kahl 38:52
The thing is, it's not very dangerous. That's the part that I always find very interesting when you do like social media stuff, like the half life of an outrage on social media is very, very short because people jump from one topic to another. So even if something were to happen, that is not in your interest. It's going to be over blown over by tomorrow or the next week or the next month, depending on how outrageous it was. Right? So even that, the risk of that, the downside, the potential massive downside of that blows over quickly. But the potential upside of this, building connections with people, teaching people they will always remember you. That's the stuff that I get sometimes when people tell me, I read your book three years ago and now I'm running this business and it blows my mind because they will never forget that when they read this book that started their business career, right? The fact that I wrote it, back then it was like, should I write a book? I don't know. Can I read a book? Am I allowed, right? There was a permission thing as well. And then I figured out I'm writing this for and you said it earlier myself five years ago. I would have loved to read this book prior to me building the business that kind of caused me to write the book. So in finding this kind of response in others, it just makes so clear to me. First off, I'm not that special, like everybody's on the same journey. But I'm special enough to teach. Like that's something that helps me overcome any kind of imposter syndrome, which I, like you believe is the flip side of growth. It's the same coin. It's just as you know, you just kind of flip it and sometimes it lands on sure, why not? Sometimes it lands up, ah. So but you know, the thing that I noticed is that everybody is or many people are on similar journeys. And you sometimes forget that you are on journeys with other people. Because, you know, you can find camaraderie, you can find support, you can find like people cheering on each other there. And you sometimes forget that you're also on a uniquely special journey yourself, right? That's something that people may not be able to relate to as much. But it's a balance between, I'm on a journey for me and I'm on a journey like others. And if you combine this wherever you come from, sometimes from an imposter syndrome, sometimes from overconfidence kind of angle, you can find yourself in this spectrum and use it as leverage to just keep going on your journey. Because either it's good for you or it's also good for others. So that's how I do it myself.

Kasey Jones 41:12
I think that's a really helpful perspective because it is, I mean, yes, it is about us and our own journey. But it's also like, we aren't alone in this thing. And what I also think is very interesting. People often will say, well, I don't think I have anything unique to say. And the thing is, I hate to break it to everybody. There is nothing left unique to say, like, it's all been said. There truly is nothing like at best it's derivative. So you can just let that go. You're never going to get that. But you, as a person, are unique. There is no single other person on the planet, alive or dead, who has ever had your unique blend of experience, background, personality, skills, strengths, passions, like all of these other things, no one. And so you can say the exact same thing that 1000 other people have said, but it's just going to land differently. It's just going to feel different coming from you because you are different.

Arvid Kahl 42:17
Yes, that's such a wonderful way of pulling these two together, right?Your unique self with your own experiences and hear other people in similar journeys with relatable, yet distinct experiences. And whatever you do lands on either side of this, right? You can do something that helps both. That is a wonderful way of saying this because that really, it allows you to resonate with the people who this is for, right? This kind of the audience you choose, the people you choose to serve and empower, like your unique journey similar as theirs but distinct, allows people to relate to it, not to feel the exact same thing. And not to go on the exact same journey. But they can relate and in that relationship or that relatability lies to see for relationship, which is what we want to build, right?

Kasey Jones 43:06
Yeah. And that's what's beautiful about it is there's this opportunity for connection. And one of the things I really, I think I'm very passionate about this with social media is I really do believe it is relationship building at scale. And it's strange. And I will always sort of warn people of this when they're going down this path. I was like, it will be super weird when someone who has never met acts like you are old friends. And it's kind of a one way thing because you don't read their content, right? Like but they read yours. And it's funny, too. It's especially I really on LinkedIn, my brand early was, like all about video. Video is not a thing on LinkedIn anymore. And I remember particularly with the video, people feel like they've had conversations with you. And so I'm not exaggerating, like and actually a woman has become a very, very good friend of mine now. Like I met her at an event and she comes up to me and just like, hugged me for like a solid minute. And I was like, oh, like what is this? She was like, oh my God! Like I love your videos like that. And which we became very close friends after that. But like that stuff it happens. And people will feel this like deep connection to you and people that it'll surprise you, you know that you have that effect, but it's incredibly rewarding. And the more of those experiences you have, the easier it gets to be like yeah, I'm terrified to post this thing that feels really raw and super personal. But I know it might help someone and I know it's going to be worth it and it gets easier and easier over time.

Arvid Kahl 43:06
Yes, and it has benefits, opportunities and like all kinds of things that can happen from it, right? Like even though those relationships maybe one sided, they can flourish into something bigger and you kind of you put the foundation out there that is the platform, right? That is literally the thing that you allow for people to climb on to, to be part of your world. Oh, wow. Well, if people want to build a parasocial relationship with you, where would you ask them to go?

Kasey Jones 45:18
So, I'm on Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn. I haven't started posting again because I kind of took a break. But I'm just about to go back to TikTok and I'm abetterjones on everything. And yeah, come find me there. And like, come hang out with me. Send me messages.

Arvid Kahl 45:44
I highly recommend it. I haven't checked out your TikTok yet. I will because I expect you will start posting today, or at least as this is published. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate all these insights and a very deep open and vulnerable conversation about being deep, open and vulnerable. That is wonderful because I think a lot of people would like to. They lack the vocabulary, they lack the methodology. And you shared a lot of this today. I bet people will check out your work, the cohort and all that stuff beyond that because I would also would like to recommend that because it's allowing a lot of people as I can see from you sharing it in public to find their path towards towards their own platform. That's really nice. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Kasey Jones 46:27
Thank you for having me. I knew this would be a fun conversation, but didn't realize we would get so deep and it would be so meaningful. So I appreciate the opportunity.

Arvid Kahl 46:39
Well, I would like to be your parasocial friend for the future, if that's all right with you.

Kasey Jones 46:42
Otherwise, you'll just have like a social stalker, let's be real.

Arvid Kahl 46:49
Yeah, that's also pretty weird. You said it's going to be weird. That sounds like a dad weird, just be friends. Alright, thank you so much

Kasey Jones 46:55
Thank you!

Arvid Kahl 46:55
For being on the show

And that's it for today. I will now briefly thank my sponsor, acquire.com. Imagine this, you're a founder who's built a really solid SaaS product, you acquired all those customers, and everything is generating really consistent monthly recurring revenue. That's the dream of every SaaS founder, right? Problem is you're not growing for whatever reason, maybe it's lack of skill or lack of focus or play in lack of interest. You don't know. You just feel stuck in your business with your business. What should you do? Well, the story that I would like to hear is that you buckled down, you reignited the fire and you started working on the business not just in the business and all those things you did like audience building and marketing and sales and outreach, they really helped you to go down this road, six months down the road, making all that money. You tripled your revenue and you have this hyper successful business. That is the dream. The reality, unfortunately, is not as simple as this. And the situation that you might find yourself in is looking different for every single founder who is facing this crossroad. This problem is common, but it looks different every time. But what doesn't look different every time is the story that here just ends up being one of inaction and stagnation. Because the business becomes less and less valuable over time and then eventually completely worthless if you don't do anything. So if you find yourself here, already at this point or you think your story is likely headed down a similar road, I would consider a third option and that is selling your business on acquire.com. Because you capitalizing on the value of your time today is a pretty smart move. It's certainly better than not doing anything. And acquire.com is free to list. They've helped hundreds of founders already, just go check it out at try.acquire.com/arvid, it's me and see for yourself if this is the right option for you, your business at this time. You might just want to wait a bit and see if it works out half a year from now or a year from now. Just check it out. It's always good to be in the know.

Thank you for listening to the Bootstrapped Founder today. I really appreciate that. You can find me on Twitter @arvidkahl. And you'll find my books and my Twitter course there too. If you want to support me and the show, please subscribe to my YouTube channel, get the podcast in your podcast player of choice, whatever that might be. Do let me know, it'd be interesting to see and leave a rating and a review by going to (http://ratethispodcast.com/founder). It really makes a big difference if you show up there because then this podcast shows up in other people's feeds. And that's, I think, where we all would like it to be just helping other people learn and see and understand new things. Any of this will help the show. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful day and bye bye.