The Bootstrapped Founder

Arvid Kahl: Today, I'm talking
to Rox. His motto is building

cool shit every day until I
achieve my dreams and cool shit

he is building. He's behind
thumbnailtest.com, a very

interesting SaaS business that
competes with YouTube. He

recently had some acquisition
news. I'm going to talk to him

about that and about how hard it
is to deal with the reality of

giving up your business as a
founder. This episode is

sponsored by acquire.com. More
on that later. Now, here's Rox.

Welcome to the show. Last time
we talked on your Twitch stream,

it was really cool. We turned
that into a four hour

conversation. Let's see how long
we'll chat today. Rox, what's

happening in your life right
now?

Rox: Oh my God. So good to hear
from you, buddy. It's been too

long. Two years, man crazy.
What's happened in the past two

years, I started and sold
thumbnailtest.com, my first big

acquisition. I met my girlfriend
who I've been dating for about

two years now. Our anniversary
is like next week, Aprilynne, a

legend. Let's see. I worked for
Mr. Beast for a few months. I

built a bunch of creative tools
that did not succeed other than

Thumbnail Test. I moved out of
Thailand. I moved to New York to

Portugal to San Francisco to
London for a little bit hanging

out London now. And yeah, I'm
negotiating my next big move the

next big business play from Rox
Codes. That is I think that's

the big two year update.

Arvid Kahl: That is a bizarre
amount of things to do, right?

Any of these things would
already be a massive win for

anybody. Right? And then
combination, man, that's really

cool. I don't even know what to
start with. Like we had

Aprilynne on the show and she's
spectacular. Right? So good

choice right there. I am a user
of thumbnailtest.com So that's

the spectacular product,
perfect. I love Nomad so cool.

Like you getting around.
Everything is really cool. But

the whole Mr. Beast thing, maybe
we can start with that because

that is something that I just
cannot skip. Right? As somebody

who is a YouTube aficionado and
whenever, for some reason,

whenever my browser logs me out
of YouTube, you know, you go to

the default YouTube page. The
first video is always Mr. Beast.

Right? That's always what it is.
So how did that happen? Because

I think like working for him and
his team probably is something

that a lot of people on YouTube
are interested in. How did you

get that?

Rox: Yeah, they found me on
Twitter and Twitch. So context,

I used to live stream coding, as
you know well. And I haven't

been doing that very much like I
kind of haven't done a stream in

probably a year about. But they
found me on Twitter like a month

after I put out Thumbnail test
like so early. And who would

future be my boss saw me
tweeting about Thumbnail test,

then watched me stream building
Thumbnail test for like two

hours, then DM me on Twitter and
was like, hey, do you want a

job? Want to come work for Mr.
Beast? We pay well. And at first

I said no, actually. And I was
like, you know, that's like, you

know, I got a bunch. Because
it's like, I don't want to be an

employee, you know and I know
this is gonna be an employee.

But, you know, we talked about
it. We went back and forth. And

I was like, you know, maybe
there's a crazy opportunity

here. Maybe I could start like
an even bigger YouTube tools

business with them. Maybe we
could do this, maybe we could do

that. So they do three month
trials. So I decided, okay, you

know what? I can do three
months. Let's try it three

months. And I flew out to
Greenville, North Carolina,

where only they are until I
built you know internals secret

tools for them for a little
while, did a lot of experiments.

And at the end of the three
months, decided not to stick

with it. That I still wanted to
go back off on my own and

continue Thumbnail test, which
as we now know, was probably a

good call. But yeah, I mean,
amazing people over there, very

smart, very capable. Yeah, but
just not what I wanted to do

long term, I think I realized.

Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that stands
out. Right? Like even just your

initial reaction as a founder of
I don't know, like other people

jump at that opportunity
immediately. Like they would

already be typing yes just as
that other person told them the

story or whatever, right? Some
people would have no issue at

all with making this their next
thing but for somebody who's

building a project, I kind of
get it. I get it. You want to

see your own thing succeed,
right?

Rox: Yeah. And at some point,
it's like, I don't do a lot of

math, but if you do the napkin
math, you kind of realize like,

you know, pretty much what I
realized with Thumbnail test is

kind of like, I only have to get
to so much MRR on a product that

I can then exit to make X
dollars. And if I stay here, the

max I'll ever make is, you know,
half of X dollars. So even like,

you know, a moderately
successful indie hacker or like

medium successful indie hacker
probably ends up getting more.

And not to say everything is
dollars, but it's kind of just

this thing of like, well, how
much am I using my potential, I

guess? You know, am I going into
a place where I will be 100%

like of my, you know, I guess
potential like, 100% of what I

could ever do is going to happen
here? Or is it going to be you

know, 10% or 20%? You know, like
if I were there, I was going to

be coding, you know. I was going
to always be coding and I was

going to be like, leading coders
at most. And, you know at some

point, I had realized even like
I don't want to code all the

time in the long run. Like, I
actually got pretty burnt out on

coding. And so even things just
like that, you come to those

conclusions, you know and like,
you probably know Paddy

Galloway, potentially, who's a
very, very, like, probably one

of the best YouTube consultants
in the world for those who don't

know. You know, I chatted with
him when I was going to work for

Jimmy and the team. And he had
pretty much come to similar

conclusions. And he had
basically said, like, you know,

he worked with them for a while
and had also decided to go off

on his own realizing, you know
at some point, it doesn't always

add up, which isn't to say that
Mr. Beast doesn't pay super well

or that they don't have like
good incentive structure or any

of those things. For 99.9% of
people, it's an amazing

opportunity. But I have this
weird thing in life if I keep

accidentally living other
people's dreams. And I'm still

trying to get to the point of
living my own, you know.

Arvid Kahl: That's funny. Yeah,
that's the story of employment.

Like in a nutshell, that's
really what it is until you

realize that you could also live
your own dream, which then it

becomes a nightmare kinda
situation in which we don't want

to find ourselves in, right?
That's yeah. One thing stands

out here. Or, of course, several
things stand out, like the fact

that you stopped streaming kind
of feels related to burnout in

coding. But we can dive into
that at some other point. What I

kind of want to dive in first
because you were talking about

being a nomad and traveling from
place to place. You were saying,

like, you have to get to a
certain point of MRR for you to

feel this makes sense to build
or to exit to be acquired with

then that is a strong enough
case. Did that change depending

on the location that you were
in? Because living in San

Francisco requires a totally
different amount of money to

make from any project compared
to somewhere in Thailand or

other places in Southeast Asia?

Rox: Oh, yeah, that's an
interesting question. I mean,

for sure it changes how you do
the math. Because, you know, I

sold for let's say, like low to
mid six figures, right? That

after tax after lawyer fees
after giving a chunk to my dad

because he was with me the whole
time. After paying off all the

bills, I accrued from two months
of not getting paid because I

cut my own income because
acquisitions are weird. After

all that I'm ending with maybe
enough money to pay for like my

girlfriend and my expenses for
like, a couple years out here,

you know, a few years if we're
generous, right? Which is, it's

some freedom. It is and I don't
know want to like, you know,

misjudge that but it doesn't
feel like that much more freedom

than I've ever had. Right? I
didn't make millions, you know.

I'm not sitting on enough money
that for the rest of my life, I

don't have to worry. But if I
were in Thailand and we're

spending $1,000 a month, yeah.
Okay, I could probably have

bought myself 5-10 years or
something. Yeah, so it is

different. But I think it's
always in context, right? I've

realized that the life I want
happens to be out here. Like,

it's just this is the place for
me. I love San Francisco so

much. And I love the people out
here and the opportunity out

here. And that's worth every
penny to me. And I'd rather

spend a lot and live where I
want to and live the life that I

want to as opposed to live
cheaply. And then you know,

hunker down on every dollar I
have, you know. Yeah

Arvid Kahl: That feels like a
slightly opposed to the common

Rox: Yeah, I got burnt out on
the traveling stuff. Like I

indie hacker, digital nomads
kind of theme that you find a

lot on Twitter, right? And
nothing against either choice.

really I think I'm kind of over
the Nomad life. And I think like

Obviously, a personal choice is
a personal choice. But you hear

Pieter Levels is an example,
right? Telling a lot of people

that it's very easy to go to, I
don't know Bali. I don't know if

Bali is still the case. But you
know, a place in Southeast Asia

where it's kind of cheap. You
have a lot of other founders who

have the same dream and want to
do the same thing. Make those

same thing happen. And you live
a different life, you live a

very inexpensive life. And any
business you build very quickly

is not just revenue positive,
like profitable but it can

actually sustain you. Whereas
that number is quite different

if you go to the United States,
Silicon Valley in particular or

even Canada where I live, right?
It takes a lot more money to

make money on a project like
this just from the living

expenses that you have. So did
you choose San Francisco for the

people or what was it? Because
that is an expensive place.

Pete has the numbers. I think
the average Nomad is like, two

or three years. So I did it for
like, a couple years or like

maybe a year and a half. No,
actually, yeah, like a couple of

years. And so I think I hit
pretty standard, you know, time

when I wanted to exit, so I knew
I wanted to be somewhere. But

yeah, I think the big thing I
realized was like it's always

been the people. Like, even when
I went to Thailand, it was to be

around Pete. It was to be around
Javi and Andre and everybody out

there, you know. And then when I
went to Portugal, it was the

same thing. But like, meet them
all again and be around them all

again. And I think I identify a
little bit more with the SF

world than with the indie hacker
world. Like, I love the

bootstrapping and I love the you
know, just ship it kind of

mentality and everything. But I
think I also have, like

aspirations that are beyond, you
know, make a million dollar

business and then like, life's
good and then I do nothing, you

know, which isn't to say like, I
don't want to minimize indie

hacking to that. But it is to
say most people's aspiration

with indie hacking is to pay
their bills. Like, that's

generally where you start and
then like to live a better life

by continuing to pay your bills
and then maybe an exit. For me,

it's you know, indie hacking was
always supposed to just be a

stepping stone to playing the
bigger games and trying for the

bajillions of dollars. And you
just you come to SF and you go

to a random party and you meet
guys worth hundreds of millions

to billions of dollars, you
shake random hands, and all of a

sudden, like your whole life can
change in a conversation. And

that didn't feel as true when I
was doing all the Nomad stuff.

And as a guy and I think this is
maybe like a perspective you

really get when you're in
content on is like, it's just

that you're one video off from
your whole life changing, your

one partnership off from your
whole life changing, you know.

Like, any one of these things
could completely shift

everything for you. So that net
opportunity is just so high. And

the people here are all trying
so goddamn hard. Like it's not

even like Thailand, where it's
like, oh, there's the indie

hackers. And then there's
everybody. It's like,

everybody's the fucking startup
people here. Like, it's crazy.

So, yeah, it's just like, it
does wonders for the mental. And

it does wonders for the
opportunity, you know. Like,

I've met people with channels
that have 14 million

subscribers, just at a random
party here. And then we became

friends. Now I text them
sometimes, you know and that's

just like, sure Thumbnail test
has also brought me that but

rarely in real life, you know.
But yeah, it's just, I just

haven't found anything else like
this. Yeah. So this is the place

for me.

Arvid Kahl: Yeah, makes perfect
sense. You chose the potential

of opportunity, right? Like the
fact that just through

serendipity, you might run into
the right person at the right

time, that also has not only the
intention to make it big but

also is themselves in the
network that allows them to get

to that point. Yeah, it makes
perfect sense. Honestly, my

story with Silicon Valley is
quite similar. I was there like

2012-2013, my first ever, like
real thing that I did after

university where I dropped out
twice, great skills right there.

Like was finding work for a
company in San Francisco. And

even though I worked remotely
for them from Germany, it was

still I visited on occasion. And
the first time I was there, like

two days into my first visit, I
was sitting on a couch just

having beers with like a Product
Manager from Facebook, which was

bizarre. Like for somebody who
grew up in Germany and having

had no contact to this community
of people whatsoever, being

thrown in there. And then just
like chilling and talking about

their Africa expansion, you
know, that kind of stuff, it

felt surreal because it was.
Like this is access that nobody

really has. And if you get
there, you have a chance to

maybe have that kind of access.
So I very much understand this

serendipitous thing that you're
moving into, makes perfect sense

to me. And I guess the whole
stepping stone approach, in

particular, Rob Walling was on
the show here and explained the

whole stair stepping, right?
Where you start with info

products or services or
something or you build

pluginsand then you go to your
own SaaS. And from there, you go

to something much bigger. It's
taking little tiny steps that

build on top of each other at a
time. So that being said, what

is your next step here? Like
what is the step after building

and exiting a SaaS business with
the numbers that you just

mentioned? What's the next
thing?

Rox: Yeah, great question. So I
am pursuing something I've

wanted to pursue for a while.
Being in creator economy for a

long time, you really get a
sense of the potential of

distribution, which we've seen a
lot with physical products. Mr.

Beast sells Feastables, Logan
Paul and KSI have Prime their

hydration drink. And Chamberlain
has Chamberlain coffee. So many

of these businesses doing
millions 10s of millions,

hundreds of millions, literal
billions in the case of like

Prime. I want to try and
endeavor to do software in the

same way. So creator led
software or you know creator led

brand that is software. So I'm
currently negotiating the exact

terms, but with intention to
partner with a very large

creator to build software to
sell to their audience and

beyond not to sound like Buzz
Lightyear. But to see if I can,

in a matter of months, replicate
what has previously taken me

years. And like you said, those
kinds of like stairstep levels

in creator economy, it's very
similar, where it's like AdSense

is 100, you know, the like,
course level it's like 100 level

is AdSense. And then 200 level
is, you know, you sell some kind

of like, course or education.
300 is like coaching personal or

community. 400-500, you start to
talk about a brand that could be

acquired like 400 is a brand and
a product. 500 is a product that

could be acquired. So it's a
product separate from your name,

that happens to use your name.
And that's the space that I

really am trying to play in is
can I build software that is

multiplied by the people I
partner with? And then still,

stand alone is valuable, is
powerful, has legs and is a full

business that can then be sold.
And can I go from making

hundreds of 1000s to making
millions in life by taking that

and then maybe over the next
5-10 years taking it to its

absolute, you know, 1,000,000%
and maybe get to the crazy

numbers I'm hoping for in life,
you know.

Arvid Kahl: That's so awesome.
What an interesting idea. Like,

that's something I've literally
never thought about, like doing

this kind of which is probably
great for you because otherwise

you would have some competition.

Rox: Let me hear.

Arvid Kahl: Yeah, this is a
wonderful idea because I do know

all of these brands you just
mentioned, right? The physical

products, the Feastables and the
Prime and all that stuff, you

just cannot escape this because
these creators are so strong in

putting out the word. So in a
world that more and more becomes

digital, I mean, let's just look
at the whole apple vision pro

thing and how it's perceived,
right? We were all laughing at

VR headsets for the longest time
and all of a sudden, people find

actual use cases for this. And
people are still laughing

because Vitriol exists on the
internet. But there are more and

more people who are willing to
give this a shot. And anything

in that world is effectively
software. So I'm not saying you

should do VR stuff all the time.
But I think there's a tendency,

right? The people's adoption of
AI, people's adoption of VR, it

becomes a thing that people use
because it's actually useful for

the very first time and
approachable. So you building

something there. It's
interesting, I kind of want to

ask you more about it. I just,
it seems like you're kind of

hesitant to tell me the details,
which is fine. Because if you're

still working on it, but where's
that going? Like can you

exemplify it, maybe?

Rox: I'll tell you my like 12
month plan on this. I'm

partnering with a creator who
has a little bit of a wider

brand. So they're not too niche
down. And I'm treating it as a

product studio with the intent
of basically creating like a

validation engine that just
figures out if something could

sell to his audience, could sell
pass his audience, right? And if

those things are true, then it's
the thing that we pursue, right?

So a lot of early testing, a lot
of like, you know, A/B testing

on landing pages and pre sales
and this and that all that. I'm

starting with bass hits. So the
creator has sold products

before. We're going to try and
digitize those. And that's going

to be you know, the first couple
of months and see how much

revenue we can pull from that.
And then use that to fund the

next projects. I'm not writing
the code for this. I have an

amazing engineer friend that I
brought on, who is functionally

my CTO and who's gonna get a
bunch of a good deal, let's say

excuse me. And hopefully, if all
goes well, the idea is kind of

like have him build MVPs. And
like V ones, put those out into

the world. If they start
succeeding, bring on another dev

to run and maintain that, keep
that going. And as that makes

more profit, it becomes its own
business. And then my main guy

goes on to the next one and
starts building on to the next

one. And we just keep launching
and seeing what works and if

something really starts to break
out then we'll devote all the

resources back to that kind of
thing. But I'm treating this I

don't want to treat it like I
have a bunch of VC money right?

Like I want to break even on the
year, that's the plan. But I

want to try and like spend a
million and make a million, you

know, that's kind of like the
outline of it. And if I could

pull that off and have broken
even on making a ton of software

with very expensive software
engineers in several different

products, that's a huge deal.
But it's tough. There's not a

lot of like case studies to
follow here. It's a little bit

like blue ocean or Greenfield or
whatever buzzword you want to

use for it.

Arvid Kahl: Take another color
and another noun

Rox: Orange, meadow. But
honestly, it's really exciting

to me because I would love to
feel like I was one of the first

to pull it off. Well, and I'm
sure someone in the comments is

gonna know. They're gonna be
like, oh, but you know, insert

guy did its thing. And it's
another guy did this another

thing. And this fitness guy did
this fitness app. And it's like,

yeah, that's 300 level. But it's
just, it's so interesting to me

because it intuitively feels
like it should work. But I've

already found there to be a lot
of complexity even just before

I've really gotten sprinting on
it.

Arvid Kahl: What kind of
complexity are you talking about

here?

Rox: Finding the creator, way
harder than people think, A.

Getting a good enough idea that
will actually sell to the

audience, very tough 9 out of 10
times and you end up boiling

down to it just being education
again, most of the time.

Building a thing that is not
education is the hard thing, the

evaluation of products. So like
that iteration, like what that

looks like without incidentally,
burning the audience, you know,

on trying to sell them too much
or ask them too many questions.

You know, you only get so many
hits and you know, email lists,

Telegram group, YouTube channel,
each thing. Again, they are

finite resources to some extent
because if you post 100 YouTube

shorts advertising your product,
everybody's gonna unsubscribe,

you know and you can kill
yourself. So the brand risk

overall is a big thing. The
quality bar, you can't really be

super indie hacker about it. You
can't just make the first

version really crappy and put it
out into the world. It's got

millions of followers worth of
brand tied to it. So it has to

be good. So if you usually can
launch it, like a 5 out of 10

quality, you kind of need to be
hitting a seven or an eight

before you can even be out the
door with this, which sucks. So

it means it's a little more
expensive. You need a little

more of a design eye or a
designer. So I'm finding that to

be tough. Yet, there's just a
lot. There's a lot of little

pieces and a lot of big pieces,
but the biggest one I found was

finding a creator who's going to
care, you know, finding someone

for whom this isn't just like a
course, that goes out. And then

it's their, you know, your worst
nightmare is you work on

something for two months with
some guy, you soft launch it to

like, let's say just their
newsletter or they just tweeted

out, the reception isn't great.
And they cancel the whole

project and you lost two months
of your life. Yeah. So that's

why we came into this with the
product studio mindset. Because

that way, like the failure is
baked in. The throwing away of

things is baked in. And so
again, it's like slowly as I

find these things out, I shift
and I adjust. Like initially, I

wasn't going to do the product
studio concept. It was just

going to be hey, let's build X
together. Like let's just decide

on a thing and let's build that
thing. But we moved to this, you

know. I've pitched a lot of
creators. You know, I've been

doing this for like the past
year. I've been lately pitching

creators that I know on this
concept. And it wasn't until you

know, a few months ago that I
really found someone where I was

like, okay, I think you have the
right priority. I think you will

care, which is my number one
thing. Yeah, so it's just

complicated. You're not in
nearly as much control. And you

know, coming from indie hacking,
when it's like I am the

everything going to cool,
somebody else is going to be how

this gets to the world to some
extent. I'm going to need to

kind of, you know, be on the
same page with them and keep

them excited and like maintain
this other person's energy about

a thing, stuff.

Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that's an
interesting point, like the kind

of psychosocial part of this
where you need to actually

motivate somebody who's not
necessarily a software person,

right? To care about software
because of the implications that

it might have for their
audience. Let's maybe talk about

risk a little bit here. Because
you just mentioned brand risk is

one of the big things. How much
risk do you have as the person

in your partnership, right? As
the software, the maker? Is

there more risk than an indie
hacker would have or even less

like, it kind of feels like you
have some kind of cushion in the

sense that that creator has
budget that you can tap into?

Even though you still build
these kinds of bootstrapping

things inside of that it kind of
feels like that, but it's not VC

money, where you can just
frivolously spend it and hope

for mass market domination. So
what's the risk distribution for

you there?

Rox: That's a great question.
It's gonna be if somebody else

tried to do what I'm doing, I
don't know that they would have

the same conditions I do. Right?
If you approach a different

creator with a different deal,
all of this stuff, like again,

if you call it green field or
whatever, is very like, there is

a precedent very much. There's
these guys that have done like

some of the fitness apps in the
world and everything. And

they're walking around going to
creators and saying, we'll fund

the whole project 50/50 if
you'll launch it to our

parameters, like, we'll pay the
whole thing. They'll pay for

100% and then split equity
50/50. So that's probably like,

the bar to compare yourself to.
That's what like the big dev

shop guys who have tried, maybe
like more than 400 ish level of

what I'm aiming to do. That's
what they've done. I am in a bit

of a better scenario. So I don't
have much risk. And even if I

did have more risk, I just sold
Thumbnail tests. So as a human,

my risk is relatively low. But I
will say, I, in some ways, have

chosen to take on more risk for
the potential of more upside.

But I think by most metrics,
most people if they saw the

details of the deal would not
say I was in a particularly

risky scenario, like I should be
fine. I'm not getting $0. I have

given myself a non trivial
salary. But it's also not really

being treated as investment.
Like there's a reason I want to

break even, you know. I want to
basically be able to have given

everything back and feel like
we're just, you know, executing

on profit. I don't want to draw
down too much. And anything that

I take will eventually be paid
back, can say that much. So it's

very much not investment, it's
more of if anything, like is a

closer comparison to the kind of
structure that we'll have.

Arvid Kahl: So from a founder
perspective, what I'm curious

building this product studio,
like how tight are you to that

creator? Like, just, you know,
how do you avoid the whole whale

situation where you have like,
just this one person that gives

you work? You know? And you
really have to make it work for

them? Do you expect to kind of
branch out? Or do you want to

really focus on this creator for
now?

Rox: That's a great question.
Focus on this creator, for sure.

I am 100% in on this, on this
one person. And I'm comfortable

with that, based on everything I
said earlier of me thinking this

is the right person to partner
with. And the, sorry, repeat the

second half of the question.

Arvid Kahl: Let me think what I
asked.

Rox: Classic

Arvid Kahl: It's like, how do
you avoid like being over

dependent on that particular?

Rox: The framing of our
partnership is reversed from

what one would expect. I bring
ideas. We both have to agree on

an idea before it goes out.
Right? So I can say no to an

idea they have, they can say no
to an idea I have. And but if we

both agree on something, that's
the thing that goes through. So

and that's obviously because you
know, they don't want me to go

build, you know, a porn website
and then put it onto their

brand. And then it would just be
fair. And obviously, I don't

want to be at their whim. Right.
So I'm not being treated like a

dev shop. I am, you know, their
entire product arm as far as

digital products could ever be.
And you know, depending on how

it goes, future creators, if I
did work with them might end up

coming in under this. Because
there's also like a very well

connected creator who might
bring in more deal flow there.

So that structure is going to be
interesting. So that's a little

bit TBD on how that goes. But
like, I am comfortable enough

and confident enough in this
person's brand. And in

particular, the growth I think
their brand will continue to see

over the next year five years,
that the opportunity for me of

having the right to all of the
digital products there is a big

deal to some extent.

Arvid Kahl: That's interesting.
This sounds like a new gold rush

mentality in a space that and I
mean, it's in the best possible

way, right? There are new claims
to stake in this for software

entrepreneurs like now that
craters are starting to

understand that there's value
not just in making chocolate or

energy drinks, or sorry,
hydration drinks, just be

precise. You know, like there's
also value in creating products

that keep an audience engaged
and keep an audience virtually,

in the influence fear of an
individual creator. I wonder if

you're gonna set some kind of
standard with this. I hope so

certainly for you, or at least
that you are a subject matter

expert in that field of being a
software entrepreneur that works

with creators. That is a really,
really interesting thing. I'm

mesmerized by this. It's really
cool.

Rox: Thank you. I don't know how
much I'll be able to build in

public. That's the only tough
part.

Arvid Kahl: Yeah, I was
wondering about that, like you

are, in some ways, you already
kind of retracted a little bit

from streaming and that kind of
stuff, which we should maybe

dive into why you stopped
streaming, but this is going to

be so much harder, even in the
kind of secretive world of

creators making choices, right?

Rox: Yeah, I hate keeping
secrets. Like, I as a human, it

feels like lying to me. And I'm
so used to just like, I've

always lived with my heart on my
sleeve. And, you know, my

numbers on my fucking website,
you know, like, everything's

just open, open, open. And like,
you know, even with the

acquisition, like the fact that
I'm not allowed to say some

things like, honestly, really
hurts. Like, it's very difficult

for me, emotionally. And I
think, like I don't think being

100% open is like this necessity
in life. And I honestly do think

like, there are some downsides.
And it's probably good to get to

a point in my life where I have
to get more mature about what I

share, in general. But it's
definitely like, it's personal

growth that doesn't feel great.
It's personal growth, by

necessity not by preference.
Which, yeah, it's just rough.

Like even all of what I've said
about the deal so far, I already

don't know if I'm maybe saying
too much about that. And I can't

know because we haven't struck
the entire deal. Like right now,

it's still conversations.
There's no paperwork, I don't

know what's gonna happen. And
when I know, I'll know. But you

know, it's like I don't imagine
a lot of creators are going to

share their exact numbers until
those numbers are so insane that

it's, you know, non relatable.
It doesn't matter if Mr. B's

tells you he made $100 million
selling chocolate, doesn't

matter if Logan Paul tells you
he made a billion dollars in

sales on sorry, he sold a
billion dollars of prime, not

made a billion dollars. But
those, like outside of that

there are people who say they
made millions. There's people

like Ali Abdaal, who will still
like share their full year in

numbers, which I think is
beautiful. There's just as many

who like, don't tell us all,
nobody needs to know our

numbers. And it's weird because
I feel like it's normal to share

numbers. But the reality of
business is it absolutely is

not, you know, like 99% of
people don't share anything.

It's just you keep your numbers
and you're happy with them. And

life's good. That's the whole
thing. And Twitter's not your

main market.

Arvid Kahl: That's the thing,
right? Like not only is building

in public seasonal, like it
works for a certain stage of

business. And it kind of stops
working the moment you grow to a

size where your competitors have
too much of an eye on you.

Right? And I would perfectly
admit the fact that building in

public is not for everybody at
all times, obviously. Right?

There is no silver bullet for
anything in business. It's a

constantly evolving space. But
particularly if you're not in a

space where building in public
is normalized. And I think

YouTube is occasionally that but
most of the time not. Right?

There's a lot of behind the
scenes stuff that is still

heavily choreographed, right?
It's not real behind the scenes,

it's behind the scenes as
content, so there are layers to

this. So if that is not a space
where you are expected to

operate like this, operating
like it will confuse people to

the point that for some reason,
which is so weird, they don't

trust you even though you are
extremely transparent, right?

There is so much more reason to
trust you. But the fact that you

put trust so forward in a
secretive world can quickly flip

around. So that's an interesting
observation, particularly also

around exits and acquisitions. I
remember that too. Like, we have

stipulations in our contract
that I cannot talk about

regarding our exit, even though
I would like to. And I was also

quite surprised by this. And I'm
not going to talk about it.

Because you know, I want to keep
the money, but it's a bizarre

thing to see somebody else's
fears or somebody else's risk

judgment impact your own life.
This is fear for you. Right? It

sounds to me like you went
through an acquisition, which

was great. But it was also not
that great. Can you tell me

maybe more about your emotional
state as it were and as it is?

Rox: Dude, it's been so tough.
I'm like, I'm the guy who gets

sad, let me be clear and I
personally feel like I have this

problem. My friend has described
it as catastrophizing my own

life. So like, you know, I don't
go from 0 to 100 in terms of

happy, but I quickly go from 0
to 100 in terms of sad, right?

So like, if something's bad in
my head, it's very easy for it

to become very quickly, very
bad. You can say I kind of round

up, round down. So like, if it's
under a 25, I can keep it to a

zero. If it's over 25, it jumps
to 100. And just like, selling

Thumbnail Test, man, every piece
of it was just so stressful.

Negotiations were so tough. I
felt like a bad person

sometimes, like I owed it to
people to be making a certain

deal or to not make a certain
deal or to do something this way

or that way or structure it this
way or that way, even when I had

options. Like, it made me feel
like a bad person sometimes,

like just for even negotiating.
And I think that's just because

it's hard for me to
differentiate like, business

discussion from like human
discussion. And they all like a

lot of these people also, I will
say the build in public really

paid off in the acquisition
because people trusted me

inherently more so because I
shared stuff. The only thing

that they didn't trust so much
was that I wouldn't share stuff,

which is like, yeah, okay,
pretty fair actually. I think

it's a really good read, is I
have trouble about here and

stuff, but I'll try. Yeah. But,
you know, then once the deal was

signed, you know, realizing I
had agreed to things that were

like, going to be tough, you
know, from signing the LOI to

signing the actual contract was
probably like a month. And that

was my decision because I wanted
to get lawyers, but like, even

getting lawyers, it's like, you
realize, oh, if I'm not the one

who wrote the contract, I'm in a
position of weakness by such a

long shot because now I'm
suggesting changes, right? They

get to be the default. And that
makes the life that much harder

with the contract. And so then
there's all that emotion. And

then, you know, I spent like,
eight grand on lawyers. And if I

hadn't been very aggressive and
very careful, I would have spent

like, 20. And that's like, you
know, almost like that's closing

in on, yeah. Let's just say a
sizable percentage of the

acquisition at that point.
Right? Which sucks so much that

like, you know, a whole number
digit percentage of my

acquisition went to paying
lawyers, which evidently,

supposedly a regular thing, but
usually that's on the size of

billions, the size of hundreds
of 1000s. So that horrible and

then you send them all the
changes and then they feel

terrible about it. So then
they're like, oh, hey, the deal

is gonna go sideways because of
paperwork, you know and it's

just like, oh, fuck, okay, like
let's figure this out. So you

figure it out, you get all the
terms agreed to. But then you

finally sign. And then
everything that you think this

contract is got to have
everything in the world and then

the next day, when you start the
process, immediately you realize

there's 10 things you don't know
how to handle that are not

clarified in this contract. And
all of a sudden, like what was

really tough for me, it was like
I still had all the costs on my

credit cards, but I wasn't
allowed to take revenue out

because the revenue is actually
there. So the costs are also

technically theirs. But until I
had finished transferring all

the accounts, obviously, they
couldn't magically

instantaneously update all the
credit card info and everything.

So you know, they paid me back
later. But for those several

weeks and months, I had also
been making no money because I

couldn't take money out of the
business starting when we signed

that contract. So you know,
overnight, I went from having

like an income that paid my
bills and more but I don't have

savings and I don't live like
that, all back in and all that

good stuff. I was like poor for
what did I have? Two months,

like I was caught, like I pulled
every dollar out of every

backup. So I pulled every dollar
out of my Bar Mitzvah account

from when I was 13, which is the
thing you're not supposed to

touch until you're like 30 plus.
I'm about to turn 26. And I had

to like take a loan out against
myself, which I've now paid back

I finally got paid, thank God.
But like, it felt like

everything that could be bad was
bad during it. And that's just

me talking about the logistics
and the money. But like I would

get angry. I would get into a
deep dark hole of depression. I

would constantly think every day
watching the business grow while

I could take no money out of it
and the sale had not finalized.

Like every single day during the
acquisition, I regretted it.

Even now I feel like I still
regret it. And it was it's just

so tough because it's like
there's some aspect of it that

was like this tool was my baby,
right? My whole life changed

because I built this tool. Mr.
Beast thing happened because I

built this tool. I've gone to
all these conferences this whole

YouTube world knows about me.
It's all because of this one

tool. None of that happened
without this. Right? And I

didn't realize that until I
finally like signed the papers

everything but like selling it
really, like, felt like I just

sold a piece of myself. And so
much fear and doubt have come in

since. I am sorry. It's been so
tough to think that I've like,

sold my soul is kind of what it
felt like, you know, like

everything that I built all
these relationships are no

longer mine. This tool is no
longer mine. A lot of these

people who buy the tool based on
me based on like, oh, this guy

worked for Mr. Beast, I trust
him right like to have removed

that now, in some way feels like
just inherently, you know, like,

am I betraying people by doing
this? Like, am I selling out?

You know, I know I didn't want
to keep working on Thumbnail

Test forever. But it could have
become a side thing. I had hired

an engineer. I was only working
on it for a few hours a week,

really. And few hours a week to
pay my bills and have marketing

budget was pretty crazy,
actually.

Arvid Kahl: That's not too bad

Rox: It's not at all. It was
growing. It's growing like 10%

month over month by itself. God
bless. And so all of a sudden,

it was like all my friends who
looked at the numbers, you know,

back before the acquisition
finalized and I was still able

to talk about them. They were
like, you're crazy. Like, purely

based on MRR and profit and
multiples and all that. But you

know, the tool is risky, right?
So I was okay with taking lower

numbers like I don't treat it
like your usual SaaS exit.

Because you know, YouTube's
putting out AB testing. So the

core functionality of the
platform, the core feature that

everything is based off of is
hilariously competitive.

Arvid Kahl: With the platform
you're building

Rox: With the platform itself.
Sounds like yeah, okay. Fair

enough, I'll probably not get
any crazy numbers out this guy.

Arvid Kahl: Dude, I think you
made the absolute right choice

like and this is my personal
opinion, obviously. Right? And

first of all, thank you for
sharing this in such emotional

candor and depth. I feel it
resonate with a very, very deep

part of myself as well because I
had the exact same experience

selling Feedback Panda. Like
that was our baby. That was the

thing that we built
relationships with. It's the

thing that allowed me to be part
of a community and to have

something to show for. And
through that, you know, the sale

it was very taxing emotionally,
just like what you explained.

And it was taxing in a grieving
way. There's grief in losing

this, in selling it and giving
it to somebody else. And I don't

know if this is going to help
you or not. But I still

occasionally feel it, that
grief. But I look at it, I look

back at it. And I see where I am
now because of it not because of

the business. But because of the
sale and everything beyond that,

that came from moving up one
step. Right? And that shows me

that I made the right choice.
And I think you are at the

precipice of this with the
project that you're working on.

And give it a couple months. And
you're going to look back at

this, hopefully and see oh,
yeah, that's the step. Now I can

see the step because I'm one
step above, you know. I very

much understand how you feel
right now. And what is the

situation that you're in because
it is a weird thing, like

whoever does this kind of stuff,
right? Whoever built something

from nothing, that is uniquely
it's an identity thing, right?

It's a part of you. You built
this. You are it for a while and

then you give it away. It's like
ripping out a part of your body

and handing it to somebody else.
But in a way, it is not. And you

only see that after the fact. So
for everybody who's listening or

watching and feeling the same
way, my personal experience

shows me that it is a stage that
just like all stages of

everything you overcome
eventually, but it is a very

emotionally taxing stage. Did
you ever get to a point where

you were like, I'm gonna revert
this. I'm going to cancel and

scrub the whole thing.

Rox: Yeah, three minutes before
I signed the paper. The guy

acquiring it, he was like, oh,
dude, film yourself. Like when

you sign the paper, like you'll
be so happy

Arvid Kahl: Just crying

Rox: I signed it. And I didn't
say a single I only felt bad.

And that's the thing this whole
time, I've only felt bad. And,

you know, for a long time, it
was kind of easy to understand

why, especially when I had no
money and I hadn't gotten paid.

And it was like, yeah, I haven't
gotten a single dopamine hit.

And it's like, yeah, for the
first time in my life, my bank

account has a six digit number
in it. Yeah, doesn't start with

a crazy digit, but it's a six
digit. But all it feels like, it

feels more like some relief from
the pain I was feeling as

opposed to like a victory, you
know and that's the thing, like

it doesn't feel like a win. And
I don't think it'll ever feel

like a win. Like, it feels most
like an escape. And I think I

had two months worth of
graduation goggles on it, you

know, because it also like, only
started blowing up right as I

went to sell it, you know. So
for the longest time, the

decision to sell is based on it
not blowing up and everything

and then go back and forth. I
could read you. I wrote this

whole thing that I didn't post
because I wanted to like, you

know, work on it more. But I
wrote this, like deeply sad, you

know, plan for the Twitter
thread of like, why I sold

Thumbnail Test. And I'll tell
you the first six words in why I

sold Thumbnail Test, it says how
I feel awful, heartbroken,

destroyed. Those are the first
six words in the post that I

wrote. Yeah, hugely. At some
point, it says am I an idiot? I

think so. Yeah

Arvid Kahl: Honestly, I get it
because that's also the thing

with being an indie hacker or a
founder that doesn't have like a

massive team. I mean, you had
opti that's the developer,

right? And you have your
partner, she also gets the solo

entrepreneurial life. It's hard
because it's all on you. Like

the choices are all on you, too.
That's the thing, right? You

have to make all these choices
about things that you just have

no idea about, what's the future
gonna look like? What's YouTube

going to do? Like are they going
to eat it? Or they're going to

buy it? Probably not, who knows.
But then you have to deal with

all these things as well. Man, I
think that's what I mean with

looking at it in retrospect, a
couple months from now. It feels

while you're in the trenches, it
feels incredibly stressful. And

it is stressful because it's
literally creating physical

stress that is also my
experience, but somebody has to

make these choices and stand
behind them. And you don't

really have much of guidance
that you can take anywhere.

People look at your MRR and tell
you you should keep doing it.

That is really not advice that
makes any sense at all, right?

Because there's so much more to
a business than just the numbers

and where they're going. There's
your physical and mental well

being that has the potential of
something happening. You know,

Feedback Panda, what happened to
the business like six months

after we sold it? It just
flatlines because China

introduced regulation that
forbade people from teaching

English online in China, that if
they were not in China

physically, so all those people
that we sold our business to or

we sold our subscription to our
SaaS to who were employed by a

Chinese company, who sourced
English speaking teachers from

all over the world, they lost
their job. And with losing their

job, they lost the need for our
product. Nobody could have known

this. We sold at a point where I
thought like, oh, man, this is

growing again, 5 to 10% month
over month. We could keep doing

this and running for another
year. And then we would have

like twice the amount of money
and you know, all these

thoughts, you probably are
having them right now at this

point. But we sold, we were
pretty heartbroken as well

because again, it's even in our
case, it was literally me and my

girlfriend building something
and giving it away. Right? That

the whole baby analogy is very
viscerally felt at that point.

Like we built this over, you
know, 15 months. It's a bit long

for virtual pregnancy. But you
know, it was something that we

built together and nobody else
was part of this. It was our

thing. We gave it away. We got
money for it, which is weird.

And then we saw it crumble at
some later point. And we were

like, wow, that was a good
choice. Right? Because you never

know what's going to happen.

Rox: Yeah, and that's like, I
keep telling myself that you

know that like

Arvid Kahl: No, I'm telling you
too

Rox: Yeah, and like it's sort of
this weird emptiness of like

you're just putting everything
on the next thing like you're

putting everything into the
future. And you know, I had like

a quote in here from God, I
don't even know. Don't be afraid

to give up the good to go for
the great and that was like

really a lot of the rationale
behind this. Yeah, and a lot of

people say like, if you do it
once like if you've done it once

you can do it again. Which I
want to believe but emotionally

have no way to do so because it
doesn't feel like I did anything

to blow up that. It feels like
it just blew up

Arvid Kahl: Oh, that's funny
that because that's like some

part of you knows exactly that
you're completely wrong with

this, right? This is all you're
doing.

Rox: That guy made a video.

Arvid Kahl: Without the tool the
video would not have been made,

right? It's like without, I
watched you getting the shoutout

by Ali Abdaal, about the tool as
well and getting some traction

from that, like there is so much
of a rat tail of decisions and

things that you have to do
before those things happen. And

these are all the things that
you did. And these are all the

choices that you made, like
without you and your capacity

and your action, none of this
would have happened. So don't

sell yourself short on that
part. I get it like giving up

this thing feels like you have
this Tabula Rasa moment where

you're standing in front of
nothing. And now you have to do

it all over again. I remember
this moment in 2019, after we

sold, like I was like, you know
what am I going to do now. So I

kinda went to wordpress.com and
started a blog. That's where it

started for me. I just started
writing because I didn't know.

I'm not gonna build another
SaaS. I was just burned out from

SaaS. I was burned out from
coding. I'm not gonna code

again. And here I am right now
building two SaaS at the same

time. But you know, that's a
different story. Like it comes

back to you when it needs to.
And it's hard to be able to wait

for that moment because that's
also a thing. I don't know how

you experienced this right now.
But like, in building the

business, you spent 24/7
building that business. And then

you have this acquisition period
where you spent like, what is it

like 48/7, you know, you spent
two days worth of time every

single day, both in running the
business and making it

acquirable. And then you hit
this wall of the exit, you give

it away and then you have
nothing to do. How are you

dealing with that?

Rox: Well. I mean, it helps to
like be jumping right into the

next thing. But again, there's
like not paperwork. So it's

like, I'm jumping into the next
thing. But the foundation is

shaky right now. Yeah, like it's
very tough, you work with a big

creator, like I don't want to,
it's just that attention thing,

you know. Like, when things are
nascent, less time is spent.

When things are like less
visible, less flashy, less time

is spent, you know and there's a
lot of why I kept like flying

out the craters in the UK, like
I flew out to London a few times

because I very cognizant of this
like, you know, busy people have

very have a lot of difficulty
with object permanence, you

know. If you're not in front of
their face, you kind of don't

exist. And so you gotta just
keep finding a way to be right

there, you know and so there'll
be in the US soon, so I'm gonna

fly over there. And I'm just
gonna, you know, everyday I can

get in front of them is a
valuable day. But it's very

close. And I think speed running
to my next win is like the only

thing I can emotionally do,
which is even become tough

because again, like a few of
those things that like weren't

super clear in the paperwork on
like, the acquisition or

something like, how much I'm
allowed to talk to my existing

customers, like reach back out
and things where it was like,

originally, I thought we were
going to do one thing, but now

it looks like I might be able to
do all those things. And

technically XY and Z like, which
maybe affects my future

businesses, which really sucks.
So again, it's like it's a lot

of blows, you know, it's a lot
of hits. But you know, again,

it's my decision. Like, I chose
to do this, you know. I signed

the paperwork. I'm not like, woe
is me, I made a bunch of money,

you know. But, yeah, it
absolutely feels terrible across

the board. Like, I feel no
victories. And I think the only

way I will start to feel any
sort of victory is by just

building the next thing and
building it very quickly. And so

like, I have a couple, like one
or two YouTube tools that I have

in mind, where I'm like, okay,
cool, I have the audience now.

It should be much easier for me
to get a product out into the

world like this. And you know,
start selling it to that

community and I can make
something higher price. And you

know, even if it's like a month
or two from now, I'm sitting on

three or four KMRR, it's like,
cool, something's there.

Something's growing, something's
happening. And I'm not losing a

bunch of money on it. Like,
because in this moment, I am

without. In this moment, I am
empty. And it is a deep, deep

darkness that comes from this.
And all I can think about is

what I left behind. And all I
can think about is what I've

lost because currently, all I've
gained is a number. And that

number hasn't magically changed
my life. And I don't feel

particularly comfortable going
and spending a bunch of it

because it's all I have.

Arvid Kahl: Oh, man, 100% exact
same experience, maybe a

different number, but same
experience. I remember that,

like we looked at the bank
account and we're like, so do we

have to buy champagne now for
some reason? Because we didn't

want to and then we bought like
the cheap stuff because we're

gonna keep that number. And it's
like, yeah, the purpose, the

lack of purpose that you
describe, I know the void. I

know the feeling of the void.
And I know that the fear of what

next. I think, I mean, if your
character is I need to jump into

the next thing to find that
meaning again, that's what you

got to do. And I'm obviously I'm
not a therapist and I can't

really help you with this. Well,
although I wish I would. But

even just in hearing you talk
about it, it feels like you need

to make, you need to do, you
need to build, you need to find

people's feedback. And what I've
seen you do in the past is you

just do it in public in front of
people. So you can feel the

resonance. You can feel the
community, gathering steam

around topics, projects,
products, whatever it is and I

think your 16,000 followers on
Twitter or X as the cool kids

call it now. I think that is a
sizable audience that you should

just keep tapping into for these
things. They're there, people

are. And that's the thing,
people don't judge you for

selling your business. Like
everybody who follows you

probably wants to sell a
business like you just did.

Like, you will not be judged for
this and you will also not be

judged for being just honest
with people and telling them,

hey, I don't know what to do.
That's fine. Like most of us go

through life in the state of I
don't know what to do. Right? So

this being a setback, I get it.
It feels like it. It's not, but

it definitely feels like it. So
just keep doing this, man. Just

keep building the things that
you're interested in and are

legally allowed to build, I
guess at this point. And do it

in front of the people who
already care a lot about you, me

included. I love watching you do
these things. And I've loved

watching you code. So if you
pick up the stream at any point

building whatever, I'll be
there, right? Is that in the

future for you? Are you gonna
get back to streaming at some

point?

Rox: Probably not, I might get
back into content. I think

streaming made a lot of sense
when I was programming. But

streaming is also kind of this
giant build in public. So if I'm

especially going into a phase
where I don't get to build in

public as much with as many
things, probably a lot less.

And, you know, I gotta be
careful because I have a

tendency to talk, you know. I'm
like, Tom Holland with Spider

Man, you know. I gotta be real
careful not to say this or that.

And I don't ever know what I can
or what I can't and try to be

good at that now, which sucks.
Again, it sucks. So much does my

least favorite thing in the
world. But, you know, if I go

stream, I'm gonna want to do
that. But what I might do is

like, you know, my old streaming
buddies, we've been chatted

about, like, maybe getting back
together for some like events or

doing like skits and stuff. And
so you know, there might be fun,

funny things coming out from me,
but probably less of the actual

coding actual, like long stream
anything. But you know, I think

about streaming like most people
talk about World of Warcraft,

you know. You never really quit,
you just take longer breaks.

Arvid Kahl: Oh man, you're
hitting the nail on the head

here. Like I occasionally log in
every week to do some elevar get

some stuff going. But yeah, it
is the thing that you just

cannot shake, right? Like you
can't shake like the act of it

because it's just enjoyable and
I enjoyed watching you.

Honestly, I enjoy you wherever
you are, right? On the podcasts

that you go to, your Twitter
stuff, anything you do, your

work is just a spectacular thing
to watch. So, I will keep

following you. I will keep
supporting and motivating you

even through this valley of
darkness that you're in. It's

there, it's real. And you're
also there in real and you're

gonna get through it. I know and
I'm going to help you as much as

I can. I'm gonna watch you go
through and come out, shining

armor on the other side. If
people want to get to follow you

as well and join you on your
journey towards the next thing,

where do you want them to go?

Rox: Twitter is my number one
@RoxCodes. If you want to do me

a huge favor, Google the word
Rox, Google Rox and then scroll

until you see my Twitter and
then click my Twitter. I'm

really trying to get that SEO so
that I want to be the first

thing or like the second thing
when you Google Rox. One of

them's a charity, the charity
could be number one. I'll still

be number 2 in every country. So
please google Rox and then by

Twitter RoxCodes. Yeah, I mean,
genuinely, that's it. Like I'm

on Twitter all the time. I tweet
pretty much every day unless I'm

actively in a period of being
acquired and negotiating stuff

where I'm not allowed to frickin
talk about anything, man. So I

gotta go dark, but yeah, yeah.
And if you got cool stuff, reach

out. My website is rox.codes. So
you know, there's an email out

there. If you ever want to pitch
me on anything cool. And yeah,

you got any cool YouTube tools,
ideas, let me know.

Arvid Kahl: I really appreciate
you sharing all of this with me

and going to dark places going
to light places, going

everywhere all over the map with
me today. I really appreciate

it. And again, you get this. You
get through this and you're

gonna come out a very, very cool
trendsetter in the software

entrepreneur/creator world that
is even just starting to blossom

out there. It's really cool.
Thank you so much for sharing

everything today.

Rox: I'm so man, thank you.
Great chatting, as always.

Arvid Kahl: Of course,
appreciate it.

And that's it for today. I will
now briefly thank my sponsor

acquire.com. Imagine this,
you're a founder who's built a

really solid SaaS product, you
acquired all those customers,

and everything is generating
really consistent monthly

recurring revenue. That's the
dream of every SaaS founder,

right? The problem is, you're
not growing for whatever reason,

maybe it's lack of skill or lack
of focus or play in lack of

interest, you don't know. You
just feel stuck in your business

with your business. What should
you do? Well, the story that I

would like to hear is that you
buckled down, you reignited the

fire and you started working on
the business, not just in the

business and all those things
you did, like audience building

and marketing and sales and
outreach. They really helped you

to go down this road, six months
down the road, making all that

money. You tripled your revenue
and you have this hyper

successful business. That is the
dream. The reality,

unfortunately, is not as simple
as this. And the situation that

you might find yourself in is
looking different for every

single founder who's facing this
crossroad. This problem is

common, but it looks different
every time. But what doesn't

look different every time is a
story that here just ends up

being one of inaction and
stagnation. Because the business

becomes less and less valuable
over time and then eventually

completely worthless if you
don't do anything. So if you

find yourself here, already at
this point or you think your

story is likely headed down a
similar road, I would consider a

third option. And that is
selling your business on

acquire.com. Because you
capitalizing on the value of

your time today is a pretty
smart move. It's certainly

better than not doing anything.
And acquire.com is free to list.

They've helped hundreds of
founders already, just go check

it out at try.acquire.com/arvid,
it's me and see for yourself if

this is the right option for
you, your business at this time.

You might just want to wait a
bit and see if it works out half

a year from now or a year from
now. Just check it out. It's

always good to be in the know.

Thank you for listening to the
Bootstrapped Founder today. I

really appreciate that. You can
find me on Twitter @arvidkahl.

And you'll find my books and my
Twitter course there too. If you

want to support me and the show,
please subscribe to my YouTube

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that's, I think where we all

would like it to be just helping
other people learn and see and

understand new things. Any of
this will help the show. I

really appreciate it. Thank you
so much for listening. Have a

wonderful day and bye bye.